adrian_b
Unfortunately, their Web page does not say a single word
about the important problems of their motors.The
electrically excited synchronous motors have been known
forever, but they had not been used in EVs because of 2
disadvantages.The first is that traditional EESMs require
brushes, i.e. sliding electrical contacts, which are worn
out by friction, so such motors require frequent
maintenance for changing the brushes.It is possible to
make brushless EESMs, but they require a rotating
transformer and a semiconductor rectifier inside the
rotor.The second disadvantage is a lower efficiency than
with permanent magnets, which cannot be improved so much
as to match PM motors, because the electrical currents
that circulate through the rotor windings must generate
heat. The lower efficiency also makes cooling more
difficult.Renault says that their EESMs have an efficiency
of 92%. This is a good efficiency, even if not as good as
attainable with permanent magnets. Losing a few percents
in efficiency is an acceptable compromise for avoiding the
use of expensive and supply-constrained chemical
elements.What I wonder is whether Renault reaches this 92%
efficiency with EESMs having brushes, or with brushless
EESMs, and this is what I would have liked to read on the
parent Web page.Brushless EESMs usually had a lower
efficiency, so 92% would be impressive for them, while it
would look normal for EESMs with brushes.If Renault has
succeeded to make a brushless EESM (i.e. maintenance-free)
with an efficiency of 92%, that is something worth to brag
about. Otherwise, making a traditional EESM would not be
great news, because everybody has avoided those because of
the maintenance problem.
|
> adev_
> such motors require frequent maintenance for
changing the brushes."Frequent" is all relative.The
Renault Zoe, 10y ago, was already using a synchronous
engine with wired rotor. And most were going over
150kkm without any issues nor brush changes.> because
the electrical currents that circulate through the
rotor windings must generate heatCurrently stator heat
in wired synchronous engine is less a problem than in
SynRMs with permanent magnets.Most neodymium based
permanent magnets start to be irreversibly damaged id
they heat up beyond 100°C. That's currently why Tesla
has such a good cooling system in their engine.Wired
rotor are bunch of copper coil, as such they are much
more resistant to temperature gradients.
|
> > wolfi1
150kkm - wouldn't that be 150 Mm?
|
> > > halper
Yes, you are correct. As the SI brochure
states: "Compound prefix symbols, i.e. prefix
symbols formed by the juxtaposition of two or
more
prefix symbols, are not
permitted."Unfortunately, almost no one uses
SI units and/or prefixes correctly.
|
> > > > taffydavid
I have another alternative: you could
simply prefix the km with ,000
|
> > > > AngryData
Meh, units should be used at the
convenience of us, they are all
arbitrarily defined to start with. We
still use lots of non-si units, like AUs,
minutes seconds and hours, degrees and arc
units, or whatever else. Conversion is
easier than ever today so I think units
should be adapted to the application and
use more fractional units when
appropriate.
|
> > > ben_w
Sure, also 1 mAU and 0.5 light seconds, but
treating km as a base unit and prefixing it
with another k isn't too uncommon a
misuse.
|
> > > bibelo
it's also 150 000 000 meters
|
> torginus
Munro took apart a Nissan Ariya which has this exact
kind of motor. The maintenance is basically removing a
tiny cover and replacing the tiny and cheap carbon
brushes every 100k km or more. It's basically cabin
filter level maintenance.And they said that PMSM
motors are more efficient at low RPM, but their coils
get saturated at higher RPMs meaning they lose
efficiency at highway speeds (which actually affect
the range number people car about).So overall not such
a bad tradeoff, if it makes cars less expensive.
|
> > runeks
> [...] but their coils get saturated at higher
RPMs meaning they lose efficiency at highway
speeds (which actually affect the range number
people car about).This seems like a big
disadvantage. Highway is exactly where EVs fare
worst compared to ICE cars.I wonder if this could
be solved by introducing a gearbox?I know the new
Mercedes CLA (EV) has two gears, the second gear
being optimized for highway speeds. But I don't
know whether it's related to this.
|
> > > antalis
To be clear: a big disadvantage of permanent
magnet motors (PMSM).
https://youtu.be/BFmp9ODkCA8?t=725
|
> > > teamonkey
It can't be that bad because the latest
Renault EVs have pretty good real world range
figures in their class.
|
> > superxpro12
im surprised they make it so simple considering
all these EV's are operating at lethal voltage
levels. I would hope there's some kind of
interlock that prevents service.
|
> > > mech998877
Maybe they've got a big ol warning sticker. or
maybe not. Automative maintenance is generally
dangerous anyway.
|
> bornfreddy
Interesting question, it looks like they are / will be
brushelss:> Group will gradually embed new
technological improvements from 2024 on its EESM:
stator hairpin, glued motor stack, *brushless* and
hollow rotor shafts.[0]
https://www.evspecifications.com/en/news/6ec9484That
said, what sibling says about the maintenance problems
is very true. :-/
|
> > Karliss
All sources point that their 2025 models are still
using brushed rotors. Here is a teardown video
it's from Nisan car but it's using a Renault
electric motor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFmp9ODkCA8 .In
the picture at Renault website (section describing
their next gen 2027 motors) you can clearly see
the 2 slip rings on right side. That might be just
a placeholder using their last gen motor, but I
would expect that they would mention it if their
next gen was brushless while the current one has
brushes.Brushless seems to be a thing that they
have described as future work for at least 5 years
but it's not there yet.
|
> > > ece
Compared to an ICE, maintenance of brushes is
still quite an improvement.
|
> petre
> The second disadvantage is a lower efficiency than
with permanent magnets, which cannot be improved so
much as to match PM motors, because the electrical
currents that circulate through the rotor windings
must generate heat. The lower efficiency also makes
cooling more difficult.It depends.With PM motors if
you exceed the Curie temperature, the magnets lose
their magnetism. Also one can control the rotor
excitation current on EESMs so core saturation is less
of an issue compared to PMSMs.The brushes are also
quite long lasting and easy to change on a good design
so maintenance is not as a big of an issue.ASMs are
even more robust but they have lower power density and
efficiency but are better for coasting.There is also
the SynRM which uses an unwound rotor with flux
barriers (cutouts) that aligns with the stator flux,
no magnets needed. It's basically as robust as the ASM
but without its lower efficiency disadvantages and
also no brushes, at the cost of more complex power
electronics and lower speed noise.
|
> psd1
TFA does specifically call out the lower efficiency of
eesm. I guess it was edited after you wrote your
comment.Efficiency schmischiency. I see your 3% and
raise you the abolition of SUVs.I see your motor-brush
maintenance burden with my washer fluid, tyres,
brakes, seals bearings bulbs filters etc etc. Then I
raise you control modules that send your car to three
garages and the scrapyard. Cars have wear items, you
heard it here first.
|
> CarVac
Efficiency varies according to the load and
RPM.Permanent magnet motors have higher peak
efficiency but EESMs are better in non ideal
conditions, particularly low torque high RPM i.e.
highway cruising where efficiency is more critical
than at low speeds.
|
> MisterTea
> so such motors require frequent maintenance for
changing the brushes.Define frequent. I maintain
machinery with brushes so I have a decent idea of what
life span should be depending on the environment. If
the housing for the slip ring setup is well protected
from dirt and the slip rings aren't cleaned by a cave
man you can get a few years of life from the brushes.
|
> > chipsa
If the desired location for this is a car, then a
few years of life that requires half disassembly
of a motor isn't going to work.
|
> > > coryrc
The slip rings are not in the middle of the
motor, they're on the butt. I know car makers
don't always try to make things serviceable,
but it'll be hard to make it hard to replace.
Probably the only issue will be needing to
remove other parts first to get to it, if
anything.
|
> > > w4der
That does not sound worse than replacing the
spark plugs in a Subaru engine.
|
> > > MisterTea
They do not need to be half disassembled.
That's hyperbole.Brushes are usually easily
assessable from a cover at one end of the
motor or dedicated brush holders accessable
from the outside.
|
> whazor
Not sure how familiar you are with Renault, but
"maintenance problems" pretty much sums up a lot of
older Renaults.
|
> > mirsadm
What does older mean in this context? Because some
people still think the year 1996 wasn't that long
ago. Modern Renault cars are fine and reliable
enough. I've had 4 in my life time and had zero
issues myself. I see a ton of them here in the UK
and, again, they're fine.
|
> > prmoustache
There were models with tons of problems, other
that were bullet proof really.I think if we take
french cars (Renault/Peugeot/Citroen) in general,
most major reliability issues have been on diesel
cars exhaust gas recirculation systems due to
strict european emissions and they are far from
the only brands suffering from that.German cars
were known for their great reliability in the
early 90's but in later decades had all sort of
electronical gremlins.Also I think regardless of
their actual current reliability, some brands or
models attract on average different kind of owners
which impact how actual services are followed, if
the car is stored inside or outside, if the owner
take care or not of warming up the engine in the
morning or floor it while cold, and the general
care they apply to it.
|
> > adev_
> maintenance problems" pretty much sums up a lot
of older Renaults.It was in the 2000s but not
anymore.If you go to eastern Europe, specially in
the Balkans, you will see a lot of taxi drivers
with Renault with milages over 500k km. They do
hold the space with the usual Toyota Prius.The
current brands in the EU with bad reliability
issues are Stellantis with infamous Puretech
engine. And BMWs, not so much for the reliability
aspect, but due to the stupidly high service
costs.
|
> > > sellmesoap
The brand new BMW I last drove has network
issues, it's been to the shop 10+ times the
infotainment system glitches worse then
skrillix and adjusting the side mirrors
crashed and the car had to be turned off and
on again to regain functionality. My friend is
pulling teeth to get a new replacement, I had
nightmares that it would glitch and emergency
break us to death on the highway, not
confidence inspiring!
|
> > ReptileMan
As the old saying goes - better a naughty French
than boring German...
|
> > sofixa
Which "older" ones? The original 5 is kind of a
tank.
|
> > > gattilorenz
I didn't know tank have regular problems with
starting, especially in cold weather,
regardless of whether the choke is open or not
:)
|
> > > > BoredPositron
Yeah, if we are talking about cars with
choke we can say with confidence that most
of the original engineering team is in
retirement.
|
> RicoElectrico
> The second disadvantage is a lower efficiency than
with permanent magnets, which cannot be improved so
much as to match PM motors, because the electrical
currents that circulate through the rotor windings
must generate heat. The lower efficiency also makes
cooling more difficult.Wouldn't the back EMF help
here? In brushed DC motor it surely does, reducing
losses way below what full voltage over winding
resistance would incur.
|
> > cbolton
That just means lower net voltage => lower current
=> lower torque right? When you do need torque you
need current and the losses that come with it.
|
> ErroneousBosh
> electrically excited synchronous motorsSo hold on,
their amazing technological innovation is... <drum
roll please>a washing machine motor?
|
> > benj111
Worked for the Sinclair C5(Yes I know it wasn't a
washing machine motor....)
|
> > > ErroneousBosh
It wasn't far off...
|
> duffydotsvg
Amazing breakdown for someone (me) who knows literally
nothing about how motors work.
|
> benj111
>Losing a few percents in efficiency is an acceptable
compromise for avoiding the use of expensive and
supply-constrained chemical elements.Is it? A 1%
decrease in efficiency means increased fuel costs for
the user. Acceptability should be based on the long
term costs v short term savings to the customer.It's
this myopic, Thinking from the pov of the company,
that leads to enshittification. I don't think we
should be unquestionly accept that pov.
|
userbinator
A historical pioneer in the complex technology of electric
motors without magnetsThose who know the history of
electric machines will find the title and verbiage very
amusing. Motors with no permanent magnets were the first
practical ones, and at this point wound-rotor motors are
over a century old.It's worth noting that some of the
biggest motors have always been designed this way, because
the size of magnets required would make them both too
expensive and dangerous, and still not powerful enough for
their size; a field coil can generate a field that's only
limited by the current and resistive heating of the
winding, but rare earth magnets have fixed limits on field
strength.
|
> WalterBright
Long ago, when I was in Cub Scouts, one of the
projects was to build an electric motor. The parts
list was:1. a plank to form the base2. several 6 inch
nails3. wire4. a tin can (as a source of sheet
metal)5. tapeNo magnets. But it worked perfectly fine
when connected to a dry cell. Adventurous science lad
that I was, I decided it would work better when
connected to AC. So I attached a power cord and
plugged it in.A loud vibration ensued, and then it
burst into flames. My mom wasn't happy.
|
> > WalterBright
P.S. I still use tin cans as a source of sheet
metal. There was a big storm a while ago, with
tree branches whistling by at high speed. (Not a
good time to be outside.)Three holes were punched
in the house by the branches, 1-2 inches in
diameter. What to do, what to do. I took a coke
can, slit it and unrolled it into sheet metal.
Then cut a disk bigger than the hole, and epoxied
it into place. Worked like a charm, and cost
nothing.I've used coke can metal for shingles and
flashing, too. They don't rust.
|
> > > psd1
I like that story. I fixed a microwave door
latch with a beer-can shim and some decorative
ribbon; we used it another 11 years.
|
> > > fragmede
there's also a plastic liner on them that I'm
sure helps.
|
> > > > echoangle
It also helps that they are made from
aluminum which doesn't rust like iron
does.
|
> > > > > hdrz
It rusts just like iron, but the rust
(AlOx, or alumina) stays bonded to the
metal and actually protects it.
|
> > > > > > lloeki
Rust being literal Fe2O3 makes a
convincing argument that aluminium
sure oxidises but doesn't rust
pretty much by definition ;)
|
> > > > > > wongarsu
In other words: it rusts, but it
doesn't rust like iron. It rusts
in a much less destructive way
because the aluminum oxide
protects the rest of the aluminum
from oxygen
|
> > > > > > redeeman
it does not rust, it corrodes :)
|
> > > > > euroderf
And epoxy binds to aluminum just fine
? Epoxy is weird. What solid material
does it NOT bond to ?
|
> > > > > > AlotOfReading
Polyethylene, like they use in
food containers. Virtually nothing
sticks to it unless specifically
designed.
|
> > > > > > mjanx123
It does not bond to polypropylene
and other low surface energy
plastics
|
> > > > > > psd1
Terminology question - I
understood those to be
"high-energy" surfaces, because
the chains are strongly bound. Is
it a typo, or am I wrong?
|
> > > > > > mjanx123
It is really called low energy, it
refers to the low attractive force
of the surface, liquids bead up
and do not wetten, in epoxy that
results in small contact area and
a weak bond, on a high surface
energy material it flows into all
the crannies and has enormous
contact area and a strong bond.
|
> > > > > > echoangle
Actually should be mostly fine
since it's pretty inert, unless
you eat the stuff used to make it.
|
> > > > > > euroderf
Like, actually making food atop a
non-stick surface that flakes.
|
> > toss1
One of my favorite sayings:"Good judgement comes
from experience; experience comes from bad
judgement."I commend your excellent use of bad
judgement there, WalterBright (despite your mom's
lack of enthusiasm)!
|
> > rbanffy
That 60Hz sound is a sure sign we did something
very wrong. By the time you hear it it's usually
too late to say "Uh oh"
|
> > actinium226
Username checks out.
|
> > Daub
Been there. Im gonna guess that 90% of HN folk
have similar stories to tell.
|
> > > WalterBright
The Cub Scouts in the 1960s were a lot of fun.
Each den meeting involved a project. The other
one I remember was we each built a kite from
scratch.Mine was a bit fragile, and the first
gust of wind shredded the sticks and plastic
film.But it was still fun!As a teen I built a
flame thrower. No, I'm not going to explain
how to build one. My dad told me that God
looks out for little boys, because otherwise
they'd never survive to adulthood.When I was
9, I found a book of his "Rocket Manual for
Amateurs". The opening sentence was something
like "if you're fascinated by things that burn
and explode, this book is not for you." Who
could resist a teaser like that? I promptly
read it cover to cover. He wouldn't let me buy
any of the necessary materials.
|
> > > > ridgeguy
"Rocket Manual for Amateurs" was my
favorite book after I found it in 8th
grade. In high school I had a chem teacher
who would give me chemicals so I could
experiment with what I'd read. A great
book for budding Raketenkinder.
|
> > > > Daub
> if you're fascinated by things that burn
and explode, this book is not for
you.Translation... 'read me now!'
|
> anonymousiam
You're right about the verbiage being amusing.All big
generators have an exciter coil that is used to
generate the magnetic field. It has the advantage of
allowing voltage regulation through adjustment of the
field, rather than after the fact, which would be far
less efficient.In both motors and generators, there is
an efficiency hit related to the need to supply power
in order to generate the field, but when you scale up
the system, it actually becomes more efficient to use
the electromagnet. With the rare-earth mineral
shortage, it makes even more sense.
|
> > rdtsc
> field. It has the advantage of allowing voltage
regulation through adjustment of the field, rather
than after the fact, which would be far less
efficientThat and not having huge strong magnets
is nice when doing maintenance.
|
> XorNot
Not quite true: you're also limited by the mechanical
strength of your windings and core (this is the upper
limit on superconducting magnets like at CERN and in
fusion plants).
|
> > Jblx2
And if you also ignore iron saturation.
|
> xeonmc
What advantage do permanent magnets provide that it
isn't the case that all motors are made without them?
|
> > sitharus
A lack of wear components.A permanent magnet motor
uses permanent magnets on the rotor, but an
electrically excited synchronous motor has an
electromagnet on the rotor. This requires a
rotating electrical contact which has normally
been made with slip rings and carbon brushes.
These wear over time and need replacement.Most
large electric generators are externally excited
synchronous generators using carbon slip rings, so
it's a well understood field.This can be made
contactless using inductive coupling and a
rectifier - since inductive coupling needs AC but
the excitation coil needs DC - at the expense of
some efficiency.You can see the efficiency
difference - Renault claim 92% efficiency but
permanent magnet motor EVs have touted efficiency
over 95% in the motor.
|
> > > snovv_crash
You can also make squirrel-cage rotors that
are auto-inductive in the sense that they
resist slip from the rotating field of the
stator. This is also extremely simple to
manufacture and doesn't require driving
separate fields or anything similar.
|
> > > > adrian_b
This is mentioned in the parent page,
where it is also mentioned that their
disadvantage is a lower energy efficiency
than either electrically-excited
synchronous motors or permanent-magnet
motors.The lower efficiency means a lower
range for the same battery, which is why
the companies that have used them in the
past, like Tesla, have abandoned
them.Permanent-magnet motors have the
highest possible energy efficiency,
followed by electrically-excited
synchronous motors, than by the induction
motors mentioned by you.Both
permanent-magnet motors and induction
motors do not contain parts that need
frequent maintenance, while this property
is more difficult to achieve for
electrically-excited synchronous motors.
|
> > > > > hulitu
> The lower efficiency means a lower
range for the same battery,And some
heat which must be dissipated or else
they will dethrone the BMW as the
leading burning car. /s
|
> > > ipbrown
I am a little surprised that Renault is only
claiming a drive cycle efficiency of 92%
(unclear for which drive cycle). It is
possible to design EESM with brushless high
frequency rotating transformers and rectifiers
for WLPT drive cycles with greater than 94%
almost 95% efficiency.
|
> > > Rapzid
To a layman that seems like a really small
efficiency tax if you can't get your hands on
the magnets for some reason.
|
> > > > _kulang
It's a near-doubling of energy loss -
probably a healthier way to understand it
when the efficiencies are all 90%+
|
> > > > > Maxion
Funnily enough if enough of that
energy loss (heat) can be scavange,
this wouldn't be nearly that bad for
us living up here in the cold.
|
> > > > > > antonkochubey
In most EVs motors are
watercooled, so that energy can
indeed be scavenged - problem is,
during low-speed driving, the heat
output is not high enough to get
noticeably above ambient
temperature.
|
> > > > > > _kulang
Thermodynamically, heat is waste
energy. EVs are so efficient that
scavenging isn't practical
anymore; I'm not sure the
temperature gets high enough to
usefully extract the heat energy
for heating. ICE cars obviously
produce mostly heat so getting a
radiator hot enough to heat the
cabin is very easy
|
> > > > tbrownaw
You can get about 2/3 as much output power
for a given amount of waste heat and
cooling capacity.It's like how laptop
power bricks used to be big and get hot,
and now they aren't and don't.
|
> > > > handstitched
It's a small difference, but if you had a
choice between "more efficient AND less
maintenance" and "less efficient and more
maintenance" then it's easy to see why the
permanent-magnet solution is preferred.
|
> > > > > namibj
The actual alternative is induction
motors, which are just a bit less
efficient than PMSM and otherwise
basically the same. Except that the
frequency fed to them isn't exactly
proportional to speed.They've been
used to great success since we had the
needed power electronics to drive the
electric trains of Europe.
|
> > > > > mcdonje
Another comment said they're not using
brushes, so they shouldn't need more
maintenance.
|
> hackrmn
Verbiage? What about the _nounage_?
|
bgarbiak
BMW also makes rare-earths-free motors for their EVs and -
at this very moment - theirs are far more advanced. They
offer almost twice the power (up to 300kW vs 160kW) and
are on a 800v architecture.
|
> PedroBatista
The cheapest EV model Renault sells is around €20K,
the cheapest BMW EV is around €65K.It's safe to say
the companies are not in the market bracket, no?
|
> > lostlogin
The bit the gets me more than the sale price is
servicing.BMWs have a terrible record for needing
expensive repairs.I know you shouldn't rely on
anecdote, but it seems I do.
|
> > > seanmcdirmid
The only way I would buy a BMW is if it were
an EV. I'm just not brave (or rich) enough to
buy their ICEs.
|
> > > > mjanx123
The BMW inline 6 were the best engines
ever. Their inline 4 and other are a
strong contender for the worst engines
ever.
|
> > > > > tylerflick
I assume you're talking about the n52
vs n20. I've had both engines as daily
drivers, and they're both fine. The
n20 has a bad rap due to early models
failing from a timing chain guides
breaking.
|
> > > > > psd1
I miss my E39 530 every time I drive.
My next 90s Jag is also going to be a
straight-six; the V12 is glorious but
heavy.
|
> > > throwaway2037
> BMWs have a terrible record for needing
expensive repairs.
EVs? That makes no sense. EVs are so much
simpler to maintain compared to ICEs.
|
> > > > monster_truck
They suffer from some of the same problem
your likely modern fridge does, and then
kick it up two notches.In the name of
"safety", they have made design decisions
such as integrating fuses directly into
the very large and expensive control
boards and making them non-replacable.
Just in case this wasn't enough, they also
tend to blow an OTP so that in the event
that you have the know how to replace the
fuses anyways, nothing will work.
Naturally you also cannot just swap in a
replacement board, as it needs to go
through the same pairing process to the
ECU as things like the car doors, which in
most cases requires an active
certificate/license on the ecu programmer
that only dealerships/oem have.
|
> > > > > conductr
This is a company intentionally making
sure EVs didn't erode service revenues
|
> > > > > throwaway2037
Wow, I stand corrected. Hat tip for
the excellent reply. Assuming what you
wrote is true, then, yes, I agree.
|
> > > > IshKebab
In theory they should be, but EVs also
tend to be more computerised, proprietary
and locked down than ICE cars, so in
practice I think it's not as simple as
that.For example there was that case of
the car that needed an entire new sealed
€5k battery controller because it was in
a minor crash and blew a fuse.My garage
charges 50% more for labour on EVs. I'm
sure part of that is price discrimination
but I bet part is also because working on
them is more difficult. I would not be
surprised if they need to pay more for
access to the manufacturer's diagnostic
tools too, which are becoming increasingly
required.
|
> > > > joe_mamba
Simpler != more reliable. Electronics fail
quite often too. Just ask SSDs.Also new
EVs fail often too due to being cost cut
to the extreme with the "move fast and
break things".
|
> > > irishcoffee
If you take care of the car it's just brake
pads, tires, rotors. Pads and rotors are
really simple to DIY. Tires are more expensive
than like... an Elantra, but if you're buying
a 60k car you can afford 1.2k in tires...
otherwise don't buy the car.If you get into an
accident or let the bmw get into disrepair via
neglect, yeah it's not cheap to clean up. Body
work is expensive on any car though, and I
don't have sympathy for people who own
higher-end cars and don't take care of them,
they deserve to pay the price for it.
|
> > > > scheme271
It's more than that though. Any repairs
due to wear and tear or whatever, ends up
being really expensive. Although you can
probably reduce the costs a bit if you get
the non-branded OEM part or potentially
the same part from another manufacturer
(e.g. the toyota supra uses a lot of bmw
parts so if the toyota part might be
cheaper than the same bmw part).
|
> > > > > irishcoffee
That was my whole point actually, the
wear and tear is really minimal if you
get regular oil changes. Things don't
just break and need replacing. Tires,
rotors, brakes, those wear out. The
tires are not cheap, rotors and pads
aren't crazy expensive and super easy
to DIY.What other wear and tear things
are expensive?
|
> > > > > > sroussey
After 22 years, my z4 has needed
batteries and a starter.Recently,
there was a problem with the
engine misfiring but it was
$200.LA, California
|
> > > > > > regularfry
If you had bought a 7 or 5 Series
at that time, you would not have
had that experience. The 2001 7
Series had something like a 25%
roadside breakdown rate.
|
> > > > > > dmurray
25% every journey, or 25% over the
lifetime of the car? Neither seems
really believable but I don't
understand how else you would
measure this.
|
> > > > > > regularfry
25% of cars. It was... not good.
|
> > > > > > dmurray
So like... One in four cars would
break down at the side of the road
before it was otherwise EOL? One
roadside breakdown every 800,000
miles or so? That really doesn't
sound bad.
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> > > > > > regularfry
Not in the first 800,000. Maybe in
the first 8,000. They really
struggled with reliability early
on the E65, they introduced a lot
of new (to them) technology all at
once.
|
> > > > > > irishcoffee
It wasn't/isn't. The reactions in
this subthread surprised me. I
guess it's an anti-ICE thing?
|
> > > > > > carefulfungi
Owned a BMW. Had the audacity to
use non-BMW windshield washer
fluid. The fluid sensor broke;
because in a BMW it's a fancy
sensor that is only compatible
with specific washing fluids. Sums
up my experience with that car. It
was nice to sit in, though.
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> > > > > > irishcoffee
So you didn't RTFM? Or ignored it?
|
> > > > ricardobeat
Mostly just tires and minor maintenance.
You're unlikely to need pad and rotor
replacements unless you're driving as if
you were on a racetrack every single
day.With daily EV driving you have the
opposite problem - regen means you rarely,
if ever, actually activate the brakes, so
you get rust on them that you need to
clean out.
|
> > nine_k
It's still good to know that SOTA is further, and
we can expect the more advanced designs to seep
into more affordable segments.
|
> > alephnerd
They share the same OEMs, and both are following
the same ex-China automotive strategy.Renault has
also been thumbing China recently for undermining
EU manufacturing as well [0] while China has
returned to using Wolf Warrior diplomacy against
Europe [1][2][3][4] using the same rhetoric that
the Trump admin uses.Of course, under the Xi admin
China's foreign policy has always viewed the EU as
inferior and a has-been [5] and has become an
active participant in the Ukraine War
[6][7].Europe might not be able to trust the US,
but it can't trust China either.[0] -
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/renault-ceo-as
ks-eu-enco...[1] -
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1361926.sht
ml[2] -
https://www.chinausfocus.com/finance-economy/dear-
brussels-d...[3] -
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362161.sht
ml[4] -
http://news.china.com.cn/2026-06/10/content_118541
873.shtml[5] -
https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a7434
16/page.ht...[6] -
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense
/russians-...[7] -
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/12/8039
041/
|
> > > formerly_proven
> following the same ex-China automotive
strategyIs that why Renault EVs (R5, Twingo)
are wholesale developed in China? Doesn't seem
very ex-to me, more an in- type of strategy.
|
> > > > alephnerd
The EV batteries are sourced from Ampere
and LG (in the EU) and the EESM from Valeo
(in the EU).Sharing platforms isn't
something EU manufacturers are opposed to,
but they do not want to be dependent on
Chinese supply chains. That is the crux of
ExChina, especially as the majority of an
EV's value is derived from the battery and
powertrain.
|
> > > > sofixa
Why do you think the R5 was developed in
China? Renault have been quite open about
all the improvements they had to make to
their processes, development centres and
factories in France to make it. The Twingo
was partially developed in China.
|
> > > criticalfault
only replying to the first link: isn't
sourcing (buying or manufacturing locally)
parts for Chinese cars made in Europe a good
thing?
|
> > > > alephnerd
It is, but the PRC has been pushing back
against sourcing from within Europe and
only intends to use CDKs to assemble EVs.
This is what the EU is pushing back
against.What EU states are now lobbying
for is if BYD wants to sell an EV in the
EU, it should include European originated
parts. Just assembling a knockdown kit in
Hungary whose parts were all manufactured
in China is not "Made in Europe". If BYD
or MG wants to sell a BYD or MG car in the
EU, they should source the battery pack
and powertrain from the EU.Alternatively,
the PRC can drop similar origination
requirements from it's domestic market.The
reality is the PRC won't back down, so
they will be tariffed by the EU,
especially as the EU has lost patience
with the PRC due to their active
involvement in the Russia-Ukraine War [0],
attempting to use diplomatic immunity to
kidnap a French national [1], and
attempting to embargo the EU's rare earth
imports [2].Additionally, it's easier for
the EU to push back against China versus
the US while also winning brownie points
in the US.[0] -
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace
-defense/russians-...[1] -
https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/202
4/07/02/deux-espio...[2] -
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-tra
nsportation/china-...
|
> > > > > w4der
> Alternatively, the PRC can drop
similar origination requirements from
it's domestic market.Can you share any
details on this? Is something I've
rarely seen discussed
|
> > tencentshill
BMW also produces Mini EVs, which start at
£26,840
|